Title.
Paragraph.
Heard on The Bryant Park Project
January 17, 2008 - RACHEL MARTIN, host:
Now, to a story about a group of seventh graders who started out doing a research project about a gold mine construction project in their small Alaska town, and they ended up picking up protest signs.
The Pebble Gold Mine, what could be the largest of its kind in North America, is being proposed for a peninsula near Bristol Bay, Alaska. If it goes through, the project would build the biggest dam in the world, smack dab in the middle of the world's largest salmon fishery. And it stirred up a controversy among local residents.
Meantime, gold prices have reached far past $900 an ounce this week. The mine could bring in a much-needed financial boost to the area if the project is approved. And we'll hear more about that from the mining company itself.
But first, let's get back to the seventh graders. In Dillingham, Alaska, near the site of the proposed Pebble Mine, this group of students decided they'd tried to stop this giant project from coming to their neck to the woods. They call themselves the Rebels to the Pebble - Pebble Mine, that is - and we have their teacher, Kathy McLinn, on the phone with us now.
Hi, Kathy.
Ms. KATHY McLINN (Teacher, Dillingham, Alaska): Hi.
MARTIN: So I understand you're in your classroom right now, and your students are sitting with you, listening in.
Ms. McLINN: Yes.
MARTIN: Tell us, if you would, how this all began. This sounds like it started off as an assignment, correct?
Ms. McLINN: It did. We were fortunate to have some legislatures from Juneau in Dillingham one day, and they were debating a proposition in our school. They were using our gym as a place to be. And so our kids went, and I used that as a springboard to begin teaching about persuasive essays and taking a position, one way or the other, on the Pebble Mine, doing a little research. What are the pros? What are the cons? And they quickly became impatient with that and really wanted to do more than just write a persuasive essay for me. They wanted to talk to people who mattered - powerful people, people who could make a difference. And it just so happened that I had a 100 percent - group of kids who were against - opposed to the Pebble Mine.
MARTIN: So they went out and did the research - pros, cons - and they came back and said we don't want this built. Why? What were their reasons?
Ms. McLINN: Well, they're fearful of the risks surrounding creating the mine in such a pristine place, especially their place. The people in Dillingham, as well as the outlying villages, rely on salmon for their livelihood. The number one industry here is commercial fishing. And what many people may not know is that the people here are 85 percent native Alaskan Yupik - in this case, native Alaskan. And they also rely on the salmon and the other wildlife and plant life here to subsist. That's how they feed their families. And it's also a very integral part of their culture.
And so to talk about even the slightest risk of damaging that in any way is earth-shattering and very, very profound. And so it's close to their hearts and close to their families' hearts. And they responded immediately to the chance to talk about it, and they wanted to take it further than I was planning on. And so I - knowing that that's what basically we're here for in public education, I said, okay, let's do it. What do you want to do?
MARTIN: And so how did this manifest itself? How did your students say we want to do something? Did they literally pick up picket signs?
Ms. McLINN: Well, what we did was we brainstormed ways that someone can try to make a difference. Basically, it became somewhat of a civics lesson. And we made a big long list of things that they wanted to try to do, and then we categorized them into four or five different categories. And then each of the kids decided which category they were most interested in, and we formed little mini-committees. And so each committee concentrated on one or two or three different things, depending on the size of what it was they were setting out to do.
For instance, one group was really interested in having a panel discussion, you know, where people come and discuss the issues and basically educate ourselves as we're trying to make a difference. And they successfully brought together about 12 adults in Dillingham and about 12 kids from various groups. And we sat on a big U-shaped panel, and the student body came and listened for a two-hour very enlightening panel discussion focusing on four, you know, basically, talking points about surrounding the Pebble Mine. And it was very interesting.
MARTIN: Well, let's hear a little bit from the students themselves. Reporter Anne Hillman went out and gathered some sounds from a rally and from when these students were preparing for that public information panel. And here's a little audio collage of some of the students' voices.
(Soundbite of children shouting)
Unidentified Woman #1: Pebble Mine.
Unidentified Woman #2: Close the pebble mine. Close the pebble mine.
ANNE HILLMAN: Do you like the Pebble Mine?
Unidentified Child: Uh-uh.
HILLMAN: Why?
Unidentified Child #1: Because they're going to (unintelligible) the water and cattle and fish.
Unidentified Child #2: There is no such thing as a clean mine, and that's what they're trying to propose. So I'm just completely against the mines. I mean, it's basically, just in my opinion, ruin a lot of our wildlife.
Unidentified Child #3: So our next generation that won't get to live the life that we got, the nice, you know, natures and everything that our ancestors had.
Unidentified Child #4: Studies especially show that fish are sensitive to heavy metals that Pebble might kick up, or get into our water or air. And the heavy metals kill the fish.
Unidentified Child #5: This job will only go for maybe 50 years, while fishing could go on for a more and more years.
MARTIN: I have to tell you, Kathy, I hear that and I think, wow, those kids, they kind of sound like they're parroting adults a little bit.
Ms. McLINN: Uh-huh.
MARTIN: All of these assertions that they're making - there's no such thing as a clean mine. This job will only go on for 50 years. The jobs at the mine could bring - while fishing could go on for more and more years. Are these their own ideas?
Ms. McLINN: Well, of course, 12-year-olds are emerging adults. The whole point of this is half education - education about the Pebble Mine and education about what civic participation is all about. So, of course, they're heavily influenced by their culture, by their parents, and by their society and what they hear in the newspapers and so on.
I don't think that should diminish the integrity of what they have to say whatsoever. I don't know if you've heard any politicians lately on the radio, but they throw out a lot of cliches that I've heard many times before. So these guys are doing the best they can, and they're really doing more than most adults do. They're trying to get educated and figure it all out, and they're using words that they know how to use.
MARTIN: We should say that we have a slideshow of some photographs of Rebels to the Pebble on our blog.
Let's talk about the rest of the community if we can, Bristol Bay. How do the parents of these kids feel? How does the community at large feel about the proposal to build this mine?
Ms. McLINN: Well, I'm not an expert on that. I do know that there's a lot of debate. It depends on which camp you talk to, what the statistics show Alaska-wide, and also within the various places. I can, with relative confidence, say that the majority of people in Dillingham have shown themselves opposed to the mine. The tribal council has come out against the mine here. And however, there are, of course, people who support the mines.
Finally, Kathy, what do you want or expect your students to take away from this experience? It's become much more than an assignment, clearly.
Ms. McLINN: Well, what I really hope they learn from this is that they are responsible for being educated about the issues facing them in their communities, that they have a responsibility to try to express their voice. And they have a responsibility to do everything in their power to try to carry out their beliefs. And that's exactly what they're doing.
MARTIN: That is Kathy McLinn. She's a seventh grade teacher at Dillingham Middle School in Alaska. Her group of students are called Rebels to the Pebble, and they are protesting a mine, a gold mine that has been proposed to be built in their area.
We also have on the phone line Sean Magee. He's a representative with the Pebble Mine Partnership. This is a joint venture between two companies - Northern Dynasty Minerals and Anglo-American.
Sean, thanks for being on the line for a few minutes today.
Mr. SEAN MAGEE (Spokesperson, Pebble Mine Partnership): It's my pleasure.
MARTIN: First off, can you explain to us a little more about this project? It's being reported that it would be the largest of its kind in the world. What does that mean? How much gold would be extracted from this mine?
Mr. MAGEE: Well, it's a good question. And first of all, I should say that the project hasn't been designed. At this point, we're just at a period of time where we're exploring the geology, trying to understand what the mineral resource is, and spending a lot of time and effort on environmental studies as we move towards a period of time when we will develop a proposed development plan for the consideration of the people of Bristol Bay and the state of Alaska.
And I should also point out, there's a lot of misconceptions about it. It's not a gold mine. It's (unintelligible) copper mine. And as I say, it hasn't been designed. So we know that we have a very significant mineral resource in Pebble, but we don't know what the proposed development plan would look like, and that it would be the largest mine in North America, I think, is far too premature to make any speculations about the proposal might actually look like.
MARTIN: What about - you heard Kathy talk about some of the concerns that these seventh graders have. And clearly, it's - the project is in its beginning stages, but as you listen to that, what is your response to specifically the concerns about the fishing industry?
Mr. MAGEE: Well, two things. First of all, you know, I think it's absolutely wonderful that school-aged kids are as active as these kids clearly in the interests facing their community. And, you know, I would congratulate Ms. McLinn for her leadership and the kids themselves for taking on this type of interest.
Secondly, it's very clear to us that the fisheries and water resources of Bristol Bay are absolutely essential to the people in the region, economically and socially and culturally. And, in fact, we've said if we can't design this project in a way that will solely protect the water and fisheries resources there, we won't develop it.
We know the onus is on us to prove that it can be done safely, and that fish come first. So we think - we know that the concerns are legitimate, and we take them very seriously.
MARTIN: What kind of benefits are we talking about? Jobs, or do these local communities get some kind of spillover profit from the mine?
Mr. MAGEE: Well, certainly, jobs. You know, we're looking at a project that could create as many as 1,000 jobs full time, high-pay jobs. And I should say, while this region isn't (unintelligible), very rich natural resources, particularly in fish, their cash economy is struggling. There's many communities that are struggling, that are losing population and schools are closing. So there are some real economic needs there.
And we'll also be talking, I think, to some of the native entities about partnerships. And, again, we have a long way to go. What we've said is this project clearly has to deliver benefits to the local communities if it's going to go forward, and commit it to that. There's ways to go and lots of public discussion to be had before those decisions are made.
MARTIN: So this is far from a done deal?
Mr. MAGEE: Absolutely. We have many years to go and much work to do. We're investing significantly now. We are very committed to reaching out to local people. And I should say, I don't know if Ms. McLinn is still on the line, but, you know, I would love to extend an offer to come and speak to her class, or to have someone from our company do that if that's something that they would like to do. We'd be more than happy to share our information and engage them in a dialogue, and even if the opportunity arises, to bring them up to Pebble and -probably in the spring or summer - to show them the site and what we're doing there.
MARTIN: Kathy, is that something that you would be open to?
Ms. McLINN: Oh, yes. We would love that. We would - as matter of fact, we did invite Northern Dynasty to our panels and all the various organizations supportive of the mine, and we didn't get a response. So we have been actively seeking communication with entities that do support the mine and are associated with the mine.
MARTIN: Okay, good. So maybe THE BRYANT PARK PROJECT can help facilitate dialogue on this clearly important and controversial issue.
Thank you both for talking with us. We've been speaking with Sean Magee, spokesperson for the Vancouver-based Pebble Partnership, and Kathy McLinn, seventh grade teacher and mentor of the Rebels to the Pebble.
Be sure to check out the slideshow of these seventh-graders doing their thing on our Web site at npr.org/bryantpark. Thanks very much to both of you.
Mr. MAGEE: Thank you.
Ms. McLINN: Thank you.
PESCA: THE BRYANT PARK PROJECT, bringing minors and middle-schoolers together since 2008.
MARTIN: Building bridges.
PESCA: I loved it. That's such - you know, you and I, we've covered political rallies…
MARTIN: Yeah.
PESCA: …and there'll be a little kid there. And it's very hard for the human mind not to make this leap. If it's a cause you agree with, you always say to yourself, good. You know, you're teaching activism and standing up for your beliefs. If it's a cause you disagree with, you say, oh, that's indoctrination.
MARTIN: Yeah, you're dad told you to say that.
PESCA: That kid doesn't have a chance. But I loved her answer to your question, which was, you know, aren't they just parroting what adults say? And her answer was essentially that's how political rhetoric works.
MARTIN: It's skill set.
PESCA: Yeah.
MARTIN: Even if they are, it's a skill set.
PESCA: Every guy, every loud-mouth you hear on the radio, they're just parroting what politicians say. So we're going to parrot what - well, not politicians, but good talk show hosts say in the next hour of THE BRYANT PARK PROJECT. And that is it for this hour on THE BRYANT PARK PROJECT.
Thank you for joining us. We're always online at npr.org/bryantpark. That is it, one hour down. One hour to go. THE BRYANT PARK PROJECT from NPR News.
January 17, 2008 - RACHEL MARTIN, host:
Now, to a story about a group of seventh graders who started out doing a research project about a gold mine construction project in their small Alaska town, and they ended up picking up protest signs.
The Pebble Gold Mine, what could be the largest of its kind in North America, is being proposed for a peninsula near Bristol Bay, Alaska. If it goes through, the project would build the biggest dam in the world, smack dab in the middle of the world's largest salmon fishery. And it stirred up a controversy among local residents.
Meantime, gold prices have reached far past $900 an ounce this week. The mine could bring in a much-needed financial boost to the area if the project is approved. And we'll hear more about that from the mining company itself.
But first, let's get back to the seventh graders. In Dillingham, Alaska, near the site of the proposed Pebble Mine, this group of students decided they'd tried to stop this giant project from coming to their neck to the woods. They call themselves the Rebels to the Pebble - Pebble Mine, that is - and we have their teacher, Kathy McLinn, on the phone with us now.
Hi, Kathy.
Ms. KATHY McLINN (Teacher, Dillingham, Alaska): Hi.
MARTIN: So I understand you're in your classroom right now, and your students are sitting with you, listening in.
Ms. McLINN: Yes.
MARTIN: Tell us, if you would, how this all began. This sounds like it started off as an assignment, correct?
Ms. McLINN: It did. We were fortunate to have some legislatures from Juneau in Dillingham one day, and they were debating a proposition in our school. They were using our gym as a place to be. And so our kids went, and I used that as a springboard to begin teaching about persuasive essays and taking a position, one way or the other, on the Pebble Mine, doing a little research. What are the pros? What are the cons? And they quickly became impatient with that and really wanted to do more than just write a persuasive essay for me. They wanted to talk to people who mattered - powerful people, people who could make a difference. And it just so happened that I had a 100 percent - group of kids who were against - opposed to the Pebble Mine.
MARTIN: So they went out and did the research - pros, cons - and they came back and said we don't want this built. Why? What were their reasons?
Ms. McLINN: Well, they're fearful of the risks surrounding creating the mine in such a pristine place, especially their place. The people in Dillingham, as well as the outlying villages, rely on salmon for their livelihood. The number one industry here is commercial fishing. And what many people may not know is that the people here are 85 percent native Alaskan Yupik - in this case, native Alaskan. And they also rely on the salmon and the other wildlife and plant life here to subsist. That's how they feed their families. And it's also a very integral part of their culture.
And so to talk about even the slightest risk of damaging that in any way is earth-shattering and very, very profound. And so it's close to their hearts and close to their families' hearts. And they responded immediately to the chance to talk about it, and they wanted to take it further than I was planning on. And so I - knowing that that's what basically we're here for in public education, I said, okay, let's do it. What do you want to do?
MARTIN: And so how did this manifest itself? How did your students say we want to do something? Did they literally pick up picket signs?
Ms. McLINN: Well, what we did was we brainstormed ways that someone can try to make a difference. Basically, it became somewhat of a civics lesson. And we made a big long list of things that they wanted to try to do, and then we categorized them into four or five different categories. And then each of the kids decided which category they were most interested in, and we formed little mini-committees. And so each committee concentrated on one or two or three different things, depending on the size of what it was they were setting out to do.
For instance, one group was really interested in having a panel discussion, you know, where people come and discuss the issues and basically educate ourselves as we're trying to make a difference. And they successfully brought together about 12 adults in Dillingham and about 12 kids from various groups. And we sat on a big U-shaped panel, and the student body came and listened for a two-hour very enlightening panel discussion focusing on four, you know, basically, talking points about surrounding the Pebble Mine. And it was very interesting.
MARTIN: Well, let's hear a little bit from the students themselves. Reporter Anne Hillman went out and gathered some sounds from a rally and from when these students were preparing for that public information panel. And here's a little audio collage of some of the students' voices.
(Soundbite of children shouting)
Unidentified Woman #1: Pebble Mine.
Unidentified Woman #2: Close the pebble mine. Close the pebble mine.
ANNE HILLMAN: Do you like the Pebble Mine?
Unidentified Child: Uh-uh.
HILLMAN: Why?
Unidentified Child #1: Because they're going to (unintelligible) the water and cattle and fish.
Unidentified Child #2: There is no such thing as a clean mine, and that's what they're trying to propose. So I'm just completely against the mines. I mean, it's basically, just in my opinion, ruin a lot of our wildlife.
Unidentified Child #3: So our next generation that won't get to live the life that we got, the nice, you know, natures and everything that our ancestors had.
Unidentified Child #4: Studies especially show that fish are sensitive to heavy metals that Pebble might kick up, or get into our water or air. And the heavy metals kill the fish.
Unidentified Child #5: This job will only go for maybe 50 years, while fishing could go on for a more and more years.
MARTIN: I have to tell you, Kathy, I hear that and I think, wow, those kids, they kind of sound like they're parroting adults a little bit.
Ms. McLINN: Uh-huh.
MARTIN: All of these assertions that they're making - there's no such thing as a clean mine. This job will only go on for 50 years. The jobs at the mine could bring - while fishing could go on for more and more years. Are these their own ideas?
Ms. McLINN: Well, of course, 12-year-olds are emerging adults. The whole point of this is half education - education about the Pebble Mine and education about what civic participation is all about. So, of course, they're heavily influenced by their culture, by their parents, and by their society and what they hear in the newspapers and so on.
I don't think that should diminish the integrity of what they have to say whatsoever. I don't know if you've heard any politicians lately on the radio, but they throw out a lot of cliches that I've heard many times before. So these guys are doing the best they can, and they're really doing more than most adults do. They're trying to get educated and figure it all out, and they're using words that they know how to use.
MARTIN: We should say that we have a slideshow of some photographs of Rebels to the Pebble on our blog.
Let's talk about the rest of the community if we can, Bristol Bay. How do the parents of these kids feel? How does the community at large feel about the proposal to build this mine?
Ms. McLINN: Well, I'm not an expert on that. I do know that there's a lot of debate. It depends on which camp you talk to, what the statistics show Alaska-wide, and also within the various places. I can, with relative confidence, say that the majority of people in Dillingham have shown themselves opposed to the mine. The tribal council has come out against the mine here. And however, there are, of course, people who support the mines.
Finally, Kathy, what do you want or expect your students to take away from this experience? It's become much more than an assignment, clearly.
Ms. McLINN: Well, what I really hope they learn from this is that they are responsible for being educated about the issues facing them in their communities, that they have a responsibility to try to express their voice. And they have a responsibility to do everything in their power to try to carry out their beliefs. And that's exactly what they're doing.
MARTIN: That is Kathy McLinn. She's a seventh grade teacher at Dillingham Middle School in Alaska. Her group of students are called Rebels to the Pebble, and they are protesting a mine, a gold mine that has been proposed to be built in their area.
We also have on the phone line Sean Magee. He's a representative with the Pebble Mine Partnership. This is a joint venture between two companies - Northern Dynasty Minerals and Anglo-American.
Sean, thanks for being on the line for a few minutes today.
Mr. SEAN MAGEE (Spokesperson, Pebble Mine Partnership): It's my pleasure.
MARTIN: First off, can you explain to us a little more about this project? It's being reported that it would be the largest of its kind in the world. What does that mean? How much gold would be extracted from this mine?
Mr. MAGEE: Well, it's a good question. And first of all, I should say that the project hasn't been designed. At this point, we're just at a period of time where we're exploring the geology, trying to understand what the mineral resource is, and spending a lot of time and effort on environmental studies as we move towards a period of time when we will develop a proposed development plan for the consideration of the people of Bristol Bay and the state of Alaska.
And I should also point out, there's a lot of misconceptions about it. It's not a gold mine. It's (unintelligible) copper mine. And as I say, it hasn't been designed. So we know that we have a very significant mineral resource in Pebble, but we don't know what the proposed development plan would look like, and that it would be the largest mine in North America, I think, is far too premature to make any speculations about the proposal might actually look like.
MARTIN: What about - you heard Kathy talk about some of the concerns that these seventh graders have. And clearly, it's - the project is in its beginning stages, but as you listen to that, what is your response to specifically the concerns about the fishing industry?
Mr. MAGEE: Well, two things. First of all, you know, I think it's absolutely wonderful that school-aged kids are as active as these kids clearly in the interests facing their community. And, you know, I would congratulate Ms. McLinn for her leadership and the kids themselves for taking on this type of interest.
Secondly, it's very clear to us that the fisheries and water resources of Bristol Bay are absolutely essential to the people in the region, economically and socially and culturally. And, in fact, we've said if we can't design this project in a way that will solely protect the water and fisheries resources there, we won't develop it.
We know the onus is on us to prove that it can be done safely, and that fish come first. So we think - we know that the concerns are legitimate, and we take them very seriously.
MARTIN: What kind of benefits are we talking about? Jobs, or do these local communities get some kind of spillover profit from the mine?
Mr. MAGEE: Well, certainly, jobs. You know, we're looking at a project that could create as many as 1,000 jobs full time, high-pay jobs. And I should say, while this region isn't (unintelligible), very rich natural resources, particularly in fish, their cash economy is struggling. There's many communities that are struggling, that are losing population and schools are closing. So there are some real economic needs there.
And we'll also be talking, I think, to some of the native entities about partnerships. And, again, we have a long way to go. What we've said is this project clearly has to deliver benefits to the local communities if it's going to go forward, and commit it to that. There's ways to go and lots of public discussion to be had before those decisions are made.
MARTIN: So this is far from a done deal?
Mr. MAGEE: Absolutely. We have many years to go and much work to do. We're investing significantly now. We are very committed to reaching out to local people. And I should say, I don't know if Ms. McLinn is still on the line, but, you know, I would love to extend an offer to come and speak to her class, or to have someone from our company do that if that's something that they would like to do. We'd be more than happy to share our information and engage them in a dialogue, and even if the opportunity arises, to bring them up to Pebble and -probably in the spring or summer - to show them the site and what we're doing there.
MARTIN: Kathy, is that something that you would be open to?
Ms. McLINN: Oh, yes. We would love that. We would - as matter of fact, we did invite Northern Dynasty to our panels and all the various organizations supportive of the mine, and we didn't get a response. So we have been actively seeking communication with entities that do support the mine and are associated with the mine.
MARTIN: Okay, good. So maybe THE BRYANT PARK PROJECT can help facilitate dialogue on this clearly important and controversial issue.
Thank you both for talking with us. We've been speaking with Sean Magee, spokesperson for the Vancouver-based Pebble Partnership, and Kathy McLinn, seventh grade teacher and mentor of the Rebels to the Pebble.
Be sure to check out the slideshow of these seventh-graders doing their thing on our Web site at npr.org/bryantpark. Thanks very much to both of you.
Mr. MAGEE: Thank you.
Ms. McLINN: Thank you.
PESCA: THE BRYANT PARK PROJECT, bringing minors and middle-schoolers together since 2008.
MARTIN: Building bridges.
PESCA: I loved it. That's such - you know, you and I, we've covered political rallies…
MARTIN: Yeah.
PESCA: …and there'll be a little kid there. And it's very hard for the human mind not to make this leap. If it's a cause you agree with, you always say to yourself, good. You know, you're teaching activism and standing up for your beliefs. If it's a cause you disagree with, you say, oh, that's indoctrination.
MARTIN: Yeah, you're dad told you to say that.
PESCA: That kid doesn't have a chance. But I loved her answer to your question, which was, you know, aren't they just parroting what adults say? And her answer was essentially that's how political rhetoric works.
MARTIN: It's skill set.
PESCA: Yeah.
MARTIN: Even if they are, it's a skill set.
PESCA: Every guy, every loud-mouth you hear on the radio, they're just parroting what politicians say. So we're going to parrot what - well, not politicians, but good talk show hosts say in the next hour of THE BRYANT PARK PROJECT. And that is it for this hour on THE BRYANT PARK PROJECT.
Thank you for joining us. We're always online at npr.org/bryantpark. That is it, one hour down. One hour to go. THE BRYANT PARK PROJECT from NPR News.